However, if we take the Scripture seriously, I think one can demonstrate with great certainty that Animal rights, evangelistic vegetarianism, and many aspects of the so called environmentalist movement (ie. Green Peace) are based on non-Biblical principles and/or are antagonistic to the Revealed Word of God. Before you send me more hatemail, please do some due diligence.
To eliminate confusion as to the ideas and beliefs I am disagreeing with, let me make the following attempt to briefly define my opposition.
A Christian Vegetarian as I define here is one who:
To further define my position let me say that I:
So called Christian vegetarians make a number of claims regarding the moral superiority of the meatless diet. Some of these claims are dealt with on at http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.net/politics.php page. I want to focus this page on their use of Scripture.
You can view one of these so called vegetarian sites at http://members.tripod.com/~angelman48/jesus.html
Response #1 Noahic Covenant: The Biblical response to this argument is simply, we don't live in the Garden and Christ hasn't returned yet. It is striking to see people argue that vegetarianism is in line with God's perfect will and yet God clearly told Noah that he could treat the animals as food in Genesis 9. The so called Christian vegetarians have not explained why God made this change. To say that He did it due to the hardness of mankind's hearts (such as divorce) is inadequate as the God clearly makes the change on His own. There is no evidence that Noah asked God to eat animal flesh. I find it strange to think that God would not have made it clear to Noah that He wanted him to remain a vegetarian if that is what God wanted him to do. For God's failure to tell Noah this would mean that Noah was set up to fail.
In short, the hermeneutical principle is this. Conjecture cannot override the clear teaching of God's Word. Since God clearly stated that humanity to utilize animal flesh there is no reason to think we are bound to do otherwise.
Response #2 Life of Christ: Since the Bible clearly teaches that Christ was sinless and fulfilled the Will of the Father and that we as Christians are to follow Him, it is interesting that Jesus killed fish. In Luke 5:4 we have Christ being instrumental in helping the disciples kill more fish. One person I spoke with said that the Scripture never says Jesus killed fish. In one sense that is true. However, Christ knew what the disciples were going to do with those fish. So His helping them catch the fish makes Him complicit in the death of those fish. The issue for vegetarians is why did Jesus do this if eating fish was somehow wrong? Why would Jesus help His future disciples not to fulfill the perfect will of God?
The passage in John 21:9ff we have Jesus (post resurrection) cooking breakfast (fish) and inviting the disciples to join Him. Again why would he do this if eating meat was out of the perfect will of God?
We also have the issue of the Passover which in N.T. times meant eating lamb (see Luke 22:10; and compare with Exodus 12). Jesus being a good Jew would have fulfilled the Law of God by participating in the Passover, which included eating the Passover Lamb. Some may claim that the Bible never says Jesus ate the lamb. While true, it neglects the passage that says Jesus was in all things perfect. At the risk of being boorish, I must also remind people that the Bible never says that Jesus urinated. So on that line of reasoning we should say that He never did. Of course that is a stupid claim unless you are a Gnostic and deny that Jesus came in the flesh (cf. 1 John)
Others say that Jesus belonged to a vegetarian sect of the Essenes. The problem with this view is that it is totally speculative. There is no evidence that Jesus ever met the Essenes. He certainly would have had problems with their anti-temple theology or vice versa as Jesus was regularly found in and around the Temple in Jerusalem.
For clairity let me say, that people can argue we eat too much meat. But they can't say that eating meat is inconsistent with Biblical teaching.
One e-mail I received stated that the Bible is full of mistakes. While this is a common argument from the uninformed, it essentially evades the real issue. First, how does one know which portions of the Bible are authentic and which ones are inauthentic? These critics rarely provide a Bible that is uncorrupted so that the simple among us can read it plainly. Second, often what constitutes error in the minds of these critics are passages that fail to meet their predetermined ideology. For example, they say vegetarianism is the correct belief, therefore every passage that suggests otherwise must be inserted by unenlightened Christians at a later date who then 'made Jesus' say these things. Sounds very sophisticated, the problem is that the vast majority of the N.T. was written before 70 A.D. (The book of Revelation was one exception) Very little time for the Bible to be corrupted. The Expositor's Bible Commentary Ed. by Frank E. Gaeblein, vol. 1 p. 43 states, "The NT documents were all written in Greek within the first century.".
Other so called Christian Vegetarians argue that the Bible was corrupted at the Council of Nicea in 325 A.D. When I pressed them on the issue, the person had to admit that the Bible wasn't corrupted as much as an official interpretation was adopted. I challenged the person then to either a. provide evidence that the early Church Fathers corrupted the Bible or b. to show how their interpretation on vegetarianism was wrong.
If you would like evidence rather than fancy myths about how Nicea didn't change the Bible, the click on Nicea
Some so called Christian Vegetarians believe that eating meat harms the body and is therefore sinful to eat.
We can call these people the Christian health addicts. What I find interesting, besides their lack of factualness on the effects of eating meat, is how selective they are in applying their own claims.
Take for example, alcohol. Now everytime you have a drink, some brain cells are killed or deadened. Yet I don't hear them claiming we should stop drinking because it harms the body. I understand there are some vegans called "straight edgers" who abstain from alcohol. Yet I don't hear that these "straight edgers" call themselves Christians.
Some People want to include their Pets in with their religious
rites
The Florida Times-Union (Jacksonville, FL) October 4, 1999 Monday, City
Edition Rite reflects loftier status for animals Bruce Bryant-Friedland, Times-Union
staff writer.
Comment: This is such a silly notion it pains me to even have to dispute it.
Check out the CDHA website at http://www.rockdove.com/cdha/
Ecclesiastes 3:16 A man dies the same as an animal.
The problem with using this passage as proof that humans are equal to animals is that this interpretation neglects the whole tenor of the book. Ecclesiastes is written to show the folly of life from a human and Godless perspective. From a sinner's perspective, life is painful brutish and short. There is no meaning to life. See also Eccl. 2:16 where the man is compared to dying like a fool. Unfortunately, for the animal rights activist, the book ends with two verses stating that we need to keep God's laws for that is the whole duty of man. You see from a perspective that accepts the reality of the true God, life isn't senseless and vain.
Isa 66:3
Jer 7:22
Mark 6:41 - where Jesus divides up the loaves and the fishes. Everyone there was provided with adequate bread and fish for a meal. Do vegetarians serve meat to their guest? Of course, it doesn't say he ate the fish :) (offered by one of our visitors.)
John 21:6ff Jesus actually encourages the disciples to fish. He also cooks fish for them and even serves them.
1 Cor 8 Paul Jensen made these comments: (used with permission)
Stephen:
>> I happened to stumble across your web page and, as a Christian, was delighted to see you section on Christianity. Just a quick note: you bring up some good points in the dialog you had with the Christian vegetarian. To strengthen your argument, I would only add that the apostle Paul clearly addressed this issue in his letter to the Corinthians (1 Corinthians 8). Not only is meat OK to eat, but meat sacrificed to an idol no less!!!!!! What we really need to focus on is the clear message of God through his son Jesus Christ. Arguments about meat vs. vegetables is clearly not what God wants among His people, for it is written:
But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do. 1 Corinthians 8:8
In my opinion, that one verse says it all - end of argument. If one does not believe that the bible is the inspired word of God then you have no common ground to discuss these issues with someone who claims to be a Christian. For the "Christian" that claims that some parts of the bible are wrong or contain errors, I would say that they understand very little of the nature of God's sovereignty. As you said: what parts are right and what parts are wrong? Clearly, people that have this view do not get it from scripture!
In closing, I would add that in all things (including interactions between carnivore and herbivore Christians) we would do well to remember 1 Corinthians 13, and put into action God's definition of love.
In Christ, Paul Jensen
The response to this claim is rather lengthy. So let me just request that you visit
The Uneasy Conscience of the Animal Rights Movement
A Christian Minister Explains How He Can Trap God's Little Creatures
Documentation (scroll down to the Miscellaneous Section for info on raising beef)
First of all, you need to understand what animal sacrifice was all about. You should know, if you don't, that there's no way an animal could make up for our sins. God knew that we, as humans with feelings, would not enjoy (or shouldn't anyway) killing an animal. To have to take the life of another creature to atone for something that we did wrong is supposed to be a lesson. And, I don't see the commandment "Thou Shalt Not Kill Humans (but animals are okay)."
<<I responded: You are to be commended for not wanting to read more into the Bible than what is there. But you also have read between the lines. Just because the Bible doesn't say that Jesus went to the rest room doesn't mean he didn't. He ate of the Passover lamb because God commanded all Jews to do this.>>
Vegetarian Continues: If you enjoy killing, then by all means continue to do so. You're the one that has to live with it, not me. Show me the command where God said all Jews "had to" eat lamb. I must admit, I've never seen it.
She stated Wednesday, January 26, 2000 1:20 PM Subject: appalled > > > I am greatly disappointed that you have chose (like the Immoral > Minority) to use Jesus of Nazareth (The Prince of Peace) as a forum for attacks on them (ecologists, vegetarians) that have found > Spirit to God > through the natural world. Someday may your closed minded hate > mongering find the love that your saviour > possessed....limiting God to a narrow agenda is definately a Christian Church taught value......have > your fear, it's yours. Lord save us from your 'followers'
I responded
"Thank you for your love filled response. I am confident that your natural path to spirituality has given you great insight in your loving words. Unfortunately, your vision of Jesus is incredibly myopic. Jesus claimed to be the only way to God. See John 14:6. Peter reaffirmed this claim in Acts when he asserted there is only one name under heaven by which mankind can be saved. Yes, the Christian church has been faithful in its witness that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Yes, the truth does offend many people that is why Jesus said he was a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Greeks. It is obvious as well that you decided to attack before reading. You failed to read all of the information attacking the animal rights movement. Click http://www.wildlifedamagecontrol.net/politics.php There you would know that I am very much an environmentalist. I just don't worship animals or the earth. If you took the time, you would know that I would very much like to see responsible environmental policies established. I am tired of seeing excellent habitat destroyed simply because some person has to have his mansion there. But unlike some so called environmentalists, I don't think that trapping and eating meat=killing the earth. thanks for writing. You demonstrate again just how ignorant the world is about the role of trapping and the Christian religion. You emphasize more and more the need for my site to show the world the truth. One more thing. About hatemongering. Spare me. Why not talk to the Animal Liberation Front and talk to them about hate? Trappers have not been implicated in the attacks on any humans". Stephen Vantassel Wildlife Damage Control
She replied again:
Subject: Re: appalled at your ignorance "I assume since your and my vision of hell and heaven are quite different that any further discussion might be fruitless but who knows.Yes, the christian (capital C would assume that Jesus of Nazareth has anything to do with it) church has upheld a doctrine that Jesus as an idol is the only way to 'heaven'. Unfortunately for this belief, the rewrites of the 'holy' bible in the 4th and following centuries by the Council of Nicea and other control freaks didn't expunge the words .... "my father's house has many rooms" and the sermon on the mount and that we were extolled by Jesus that we could "do greater > things than I". All of this exclusiveness and 'ignorance' (your term) have created the fear, original sin, cringing flawed humanity stuff that is legendary in the church to convince humans that we need an intercessor between us and God, Quite the opposite that Jesus came to teach....that we and God are One.... Welcome to the New Age, the old fear teachings of the church cannot overcome the Love that Jesus originally taught ! If it is important to cherry pick certain verses out of the bible as Truth than why not pick different ones. Actually there are many devout Christians I've met that do live the Spirit (Habitat folks etc.), not the Church's fear laws (the modern pharisees) <her name> p.s. the Acts of the Apostles also makes it clear that communalism is inherantly Christian, so how has capitalism and christianity become so inherantly intertwined ?
I responded
One question do you know Koine greek? If so how many years have you studied it? Most liberal seminaries don't teach their students the languages. What evidence do you have that the Church rewrote the Bible in the fourth century. It seems you also need a class in textual criticism (lower criticism). You have committed a typical liberal error. You assume a belief then throw out any scriptures that don't agree with those assumed beliefs. As for Early Church Communalism. First the church never gave up the concept of work and earning a living. The difference was that early Christians recognized the value of giving to their fellow believers and to the poor. Those values have not left the Church. Paul distinquished between true widows and the non-true widows (see Timothy). You also need to distinguish between the ideals of the faith and how we as fallen creatures fail to fulfill all that God wants. Jesus is my idol? That is funny. He is only an idol if he is not God.
She Replied
Subject: Re: appalled at your ignorance Oh my god! The "L" word...how horrible to follow the teachings of a 'typical' Liberal like Jesus in an age where the mainline church backers (that's DIY?) are committed control conservatives........ Yes, the Council of Nicea did 'edit' (actually they decided what was 'heretical' and therefore who they could burn at the stake) and through organized government (sound like Iran?) moves stamp out what they could of other beliefs that didn't fit what the emporer needed for a state religion.....ever read any of the other gospels (damned to hell heretics et al.), Essene, Gnostic etc. that harken back to a time when things were different between the teachings of Jesus and his followers? Did Jesus tell the 'holy' church that these other gospels were not his words ? The church has definately not taken the lead on 'love thy neighbor' and the poor, in spite of Jesus' urgings....actually they specialize in what you're defending, theological conservatism, priest-caste, and witch-burning (in all it's forms including the recent 'moral majority' censorship moves). You can have the pharisee version of Jesus (Saul and his 'conversion' along with all it's thou shalt and thou shalt not's) that is just some people's (oh but they're apostles or whatever somehow different than you and I!) commentary or you can have the prince of peace, the > > sermon on the mount, the only two commandments (God and Love)..... Love or Fear, it's all in the choosing.....why throw out James (Ch. 2)who was pretty specific that all the pious talk was just that, talk.....I would suppose that could be too inclusive for the christian church and would leave their hierarchy (Graham, Falwell, Robertson) in tatters but would promote the followers of Gandhi, King, and Matthew Fox (more heretics)
I replied
Stephen Vantassel wrote: You don't even know what I believe. You didn't even answer my question about knowing Greek. As I stated before you have simply adopted a world view and then gone to the Bible with that world view and threw out what didn't fit. I guess my comment about the Gnostic texts really hit a nerve. I guess I must have been right. Your comments about Paul are truely unfortunate. I guess Paul was correct there will be those who come to the Church as wolves in sheep's clothing. You also didn't prove that the Council of Nicea edited the Bible. They interpreted the Bible but I don't see how they edited the text. As someone who knows Greek, I must say that I think there conclusion was correct. Jesus is God and not a god like the Arians suggested. Witch burning. Hmm. I guess you want to compare that with what happened in Hitler's Germany. Remember those Lutherans etc. were extremely liberal. They no longer believed that the Bible was the word > > of God aka the impact of Wellhausen theory. Has Christianity made mistakes. Absolutely. We have failed to perfectly follow the Word of God both in flesh and in paper that He gave us. However, our failure does not invalidate either. Here again you cherry pick your verses. You like those words of Love and peace. But you forget that those words are written along with contend for the faith, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees. As for James 2. I love the book of James. It says that if you have faith you must have good works. I say amen to that. But we are saved by faith not by works. However, works are evidence that we have true faith. It is sad that you have never really met Biblical Christianity. I would suggest you spend less time creating straw men and engaging Biblical Christians with a desire to know what we really believe, not what some professor or t.v. show tells you what we believe. I thought your statement on Billy Graham was foolish. He is by no means a hell fire preacher. But he does correctly witness to the truth that Jesus is everything the Apostles said he was. Why don't you spend some time reading some Christian theologians like Calvin, Hodge, Erickson. But don't let this activity stop you from > learning Greek.
She replied
Re: appalled at your ignorance No, I adopted MY view (I am in God's image)....as a 'failed, miserable sinner' I have faith that God didn't create junk that needs tyrants like Constantine or King James (or Billy Graham ala Richard > Nixon/Ronald Reagan) to tell me what True Spirit is all about. The church has failed, and will continue to fail, to > live up to the convenant Jesus presented for our relationship with God as long as they need to control..."Love thy neighbor" is not disregarding what Jesus said.....listening to Paul talk about thou shalt and shalt not is disregarding what Jesus wanted to bring to the world.....Love and openness Remember Gandhi is damned to hell under your 'faith' definition along with Black Elk, Bahallah and many other's that follow the Spirit of Jesus...you > can construe the bible (via your teacher's interpretation of Greek or not, there are other's, liberals as you call them that differ, - or gnostics or essenes) to be whatever suits the nervousness about your being actually being one with God....I'd rather spend eternity with Spirits like Gandhi then control freaks like Robertson, Falwell, and Graham. They are the christian churches leaders unless you make a stand for Truth (that comes from within) and Love ("God is Love" is disregarding the word of God?)....but then again you don't believe that that's really what God's about then, if 'the word', for all it's contradictions and inconsistencies (and editing) is more important than Spirit.... end of story M p.s. I have no issue with eating meat and spirituality ... I choose not to eat meat to help Me with my spirituality (not yours or anyone else).... as in other things, if you feel OK with your spirit and flesh eating then why be defensive? No one can make you feel defensive unless you have issues with who you are....trusting one's self to know God is rarely a christian church taught ethic...being born sinful and all
I responded
Yes, you have understood Christianity correctly. Either Jesus is the way the truth and the life or he isn't. It is really quite simple. Jesus didn't say, I am a way or a truth or a life. The definite article is there. I am not ashamed of it. If that means that Ghandhi is in hell and eternal separation from God > than that is the way it is. I am not God. I didn't make the rules. I am simply one who must respond to the truth whether the truth bothers people or not. Let me ask a question is Hitler in hell? > Is anyone in hell? Again, I am still waiting for an answer on your greek skills. I would also like an answer on why you consider yourself a Christian.> Given your anger at the church I don't know why you would even want to associate with the title. But perhaps I have misunderstood your posts. Finally, I am no more defensive about my privilige in Christ to eat meat than you are about your belief that Christ is only one way. I am constantly amazed at how liberals scream and cry about us radical bigoted conservatives. Yet, you are bigoted about people who believe that there is one truth. Why do you feel the need to convince me of the single truth that there is no single way to heaven? Again you still create straw men. I never even mentioned Nixon or Reagan. What have they to do with the truth that Jesus is the only way to heaven. Those who deny Christ, cannot enter heaven. I think you are extremely hurt by someone in your past. I think you need to get over that. Stop spewing your venom at me. I didn't hurt you. It is quite unloving.
She responded
Re: appalled at your ignorance Yes , you have understood me right, I am a Christian. Not by your standards, undoubtedly. But "like a little child" have grown from a church-going hypocrit, through atheisism, to imbrace the Christ consciousness which outshines any 'rules' that the church can try to put on humanity.......Love over Fear, only a non-Christian could deny that....why do the Bahai's, Buddhists, Hindu's, Sufi's etc. that I know embrace Christ's love more than the fear-mongerers that control the church that bears His name.... If that's venom to you (burning coals) so be it.... M p.s. If anything is a 'red-herring' it is your 'research' into my greek skills. Relevant ? Only if your religion is based on your fears, you decide...
I responded
You are funny. You certainly don't read my posts very well do you. I have some questions, one of them three times now. You don't know Greek do you. Still waiting for the proof that the Church Fathers at the Council of Nicea changed the Bible. (let me save you some time, they didn't) But do let me know where you find your proof. Christ Consciousness. Could you be more vague. Given the venom, the mischaracterizations and straw man arguments you have used against me, tell me how you have adopted this Christ consciousness. It is the Bible not personal choice that tells us what it means to be a Christian. You argue like someone who says, I believe in driving consciousness but I am tired of the rules of the road. Love is a meaningless word without concrete examples of what it means. Remember the sexual revolution of the 60's they talked about free love. is that love? is love a feeling or is love an act? Is love a duty? You have again tried to use the name of Christ to support beliefs that Christ never would have supported. He soundly criticized the pharisees. But he never criticized them for believing in the God of Israel. Bahai would have us believe that the Baal worshippers are also going to heaven. It is clear you don't know much about truth or the nature of theology. You certainly don't know much about historic Christianity. Then again why would you. You chose to attend a seminary that doesn't believe in Christianity. I think the word is whited seplechures. Look great on the outside but inside full of dead men's bones. I don't quite think you have thought through your statement on fear. I read proverbs and it says the fear of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom. I think that is your problem. You believe in cheap grace. Grace given without responsibility. You want God to grant heaven to everyone despite what they believe. You still haven't answered my question on hitler. Do you read my posts or do you simply have a mantra that you need to crank through in order to go to heaven?
She Responded
Subject: Re: appalled at your ignorance Simple... I know French, Spanish better than Greek (still irrelevant) Council of Nicea actually created most of what you see in the current bible (all other versions were cast aside and followers branded as heretics, something you obviously applaud). Many theologians have documented this. Christ consciousness is not vague (what part of Christ's Love is vague?) Driving consciousness sounds good to me. How would Jesus drive ? Love is all of the above (act, feeling, duty, free) If we are to believe individual verses of the bible we will have many contradictory statements, only you decide (or your theologians, whatever)......leaves us only with the Spirit which has continuing revelation right through to today..... If you are in a space of Love you reveal God's will for humanity, today or 2,000 years ago. The Inquisition, Witch burning, Cruscades, McCarthyism, Slavery, Homophobia (please Jerry tinky-winky on the Teletubbies?) are all evil (live spelled backward) that has had to be unearthed by marginalized Christians while the mainstream 'theologians' defended it. Even our wars are heartedly embraced by christian leadership (Christ and war together?) but again any twisting of the bible can come up with to equate the two. Beware of Matthew Fox, Patrick Henry, and Meister Eckhart, they may all just be evil liberal minions, out to distort (or at least to unshackle control over) humanity... Love is a Christian family value M p.s. thanks I'm glad to be funny.... or am I venomous ?
I Responded
Thank you for finally answering one question, I think. Are you claiming to be able to read Koine Greek? Since you claim many theologians state that the Council of Nicea created the present bible. Could you list three of those theologians. I would also like an answer to the question. If the Council of Nicea created this bible why is it that we have papyri from the end of the first century? Why do we have four N.T. text families. It would seem to me they did a rather poor job. Here is another question. Irenaeus strenuously argued against the gnostics. Scholars thought he exaggerated the problem. But when we discovered the Nag Hammadi texts, what do you know. We found out that Irenaeus didn't tell us the half of it. As I stated earlier. Your arguments against Christianity stem not from knowledge but from some bad experience you have had. That is sad. But remember we can give our allegiance to Jesus of Nazareth as long as we have breath. I think your Homophobia statement says volumes. As for Jerry Falwell and tinky winky. If you took the time to research it you would know that he was no where near the first person to make the connection. Read that Fundamentalist magazine known as Brill's Content magazine. I believe the article came out 4 months ago. YOu will see the media treated Jerry wrong there. Oh yea, in case you didn't know Brill is NOT a CHRISTIAN magazine. If memory serves, Jerry Falwell is also an Adulteryphobe too. And I believe he is a fornicationphobe. Funny these are all actions that are condemned in Scripture. I think he is a liarphobe too. I think the devil is supposed to be the father of lies. You also haven't taken credit for Hitler. If I have to take credit for the crusades, witch burning etc. You should step up and take credit for Hitler. Liberal theology destroyed the ethos of Germany. Just don't forget that Your Ghandi whom you think is such a great guy followed a religion that taught women should kill themselves when their husbands die. By the way, what has hinduism done for India? Again you like to cherry pick your problems. I am telling to meet the Biblical Christ. He is the issue. As for the contradictions in the Bible. I will ask the same question I ask everyone who says this. List them. Okay, list 5. You are both venomous and funny. Love is a family value it is also a Christian value but what is love and what is a family? Scripture defines these terms and give concrete examples to explain them. You need to as well. Are you showing me love? Not according to your definition. You are trying to convince me I am wrong. yet BHai says we are all correct. According to my definition, you are. Because you think I am in error. YOu care enough about me to try to show me I am wrong. However, I just wish you would stop with the straw men and the false arguments. You are quite myopic in your view of Christianity. I would suggest you visit the world and see what happens when Biblical Christianity has not taken place. And I don't mean from a five star hotel.
Dr. Shwartz has a web page on Judaism and vegetarianism http://www.all-creatures.org/articles/jvanimalr.html.
Unfortunately, he likes to cherry pick his verses. While it is certainly true that the Scripture does provide evidence for concern about animal welfare. It is quite another step to move to a position of vegetarianism. It is also ironic for people to use the Bible on animal welfare and then ignore the scores of passages that talk about animal sacrifice (a simple reading of the Book of Leviticus would be very useful here). Here is where Dr. Schwartz finds some difficulty with the Biblical text. I would also warn the reader that Dr. Schwartz tends to read the Bible through Talmudic eyes rather than through the eyes of the original author.
12/31/02
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